Comments on: Who’s Framing A Generation? http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/ New York art news and reviews. Mon, 13 Feb 2012 04:20:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-150457 Art Fag City Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:39:05 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-150457 @David You make good points, I just don't see this as deeply market inspired, and commericial ready as Cotter does. I also didn't mean to suggest the market was neutral. It's not, but I can't help but feel that the sentiments I see in this comment thread about the market and the artists in the show, are far to black and white to possibly be accurate. Personally, I'd like to see a full list of all the artists in the show, their resumes, and whether they make their living off art. Then we can really start dealing with the details.@eff.art.blog But none of the curators are claiming newness (at least not in the press release). Lisa Phillips *suggests* this, but she didn't put together the show. Many of the artists in this show are close to 33. You'd expect most of those artists to have shown in a gallery or two. I'm not saying Cotter is wrong to want what he wants, I just don't think it was necessarily inline with the express goals of the show. Generational sorts by age, not by exhibition history. @David You make good points, I just don’t see this as deeply market inspired, and commericial ready as Cotter does. I also didn’t mean to suggest the market was neutral. It’s not, but I can’t help but feel that the sentiments I see in this comment thread about the market and the artists in the show, are far to black and white to possibly be accurate. Personally, I’d like to see a full list of all the artists in the show, their resumes, and whether they make their living off art. Then we can really start dealing with the details.

@eff.art.blog But none of the curators are claiming newness (at least not in the press release). Lisa Phillips *suggests* this, but she didn’t put together the show. Many of the artists in this show are close to 33. You’d expect most of those artists to have shown in a gallery or two. I’m not saying Cotter is wrong to want what he wants, I just don’t think it was necessarily inline with the express goals of the show. Generational sorts by age, not by exhibition history.

]]> By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-316082 Art Fag City Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:39:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-316082 @David You make good points, I just don't see this as deeply market inspired, and commericial ready as Cotter does. I also didn't mean to suggest the market was neutral. It's not, but I can't help but feel that the sentiments I see in this comment thread about the market and the artists in the show, are far to black and white to possibly be accurate. Personally, I'd like to see a full list of all the artists in the show, their resumes, and whether they make their living off art. Then we can really start dealing with the details.@eff.art.blog But none of the curators are claiming newness (at least not in the press release). Lisa Phillips *suggests* this, but she didn't put together the show. Many of the artists in this show are close to 33. You'd expect most of those artists to have shown in a gallery or two. I'm not saying Cotter is wrong to want what he wants, I just don't think it was necessarily inline with the express goals of the show. Generational sorts by age, not by exhibition history. @David You make good points, I just don’t see this as deeply market inspired, and commericial ready as Cotter does. I also didn’t mean to suggest the market was neutral. It’s not, but I can’t help but feel that the sentiments I see in this comment thread about the market and the artists in the show, are far to black and white to possibly be accurate. Personally, I’d like to see a full list of all the artists in the show, their resumes, and whether they make their living off art. Then we can really start dealing with the details.

@eff.art.blog But none of the curators are claiming newness (at least not in the press release). Lisa Phillips *suggests* this, but she didn’t put together the show. Many of the artists in this show are close to 33. You’d expect most of those artists to have shown in a gallery or two. I’m not saying Cotter is wrong to want what he wants, I just don’t think it was necessarily inline with the express goals of the show. Generational sorts by age, not by exhibition history.

]]> By: eff.art.bloghttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-150454 eff.art.blog Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:12:55 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-150454 @ Art Fag City: I feel like Younger than Jesus puts one toe over line and by doing so sets itself up for harsh words. It is indeed a positive that we see someone like Mark Essen in the show, but you can't take one little step towards innovation and expect to be patted on the back. You can, however, expect to have people ask you why you only cracked the door open and didn't take things further.I'm elated that people are getting worked up about this, and, after tasting one little nibble of really new stuff being exhibited at a major museum, are saying, "More!" But I am not going to praise any curator for putting on a show that sets itself up to be something really "new" and then mostly perpetuates the status quo. @ Art Fag City: I feel like Younger than Jesus puts one toe over line and by doing so sets itself up for harsh words. It is indeed a positive that we see someone like Mark Essen in the show, but you can’t take one little step towards innovation and expect to be patted on the back. You can, however, expect to have people ask you why you only cracked the door open and didn’t take things further.

I’m elated that people are getting worked up about this, and, after tasting one little nibble of really new stuff being exhibited at a major museum, are saying, “More!” But I am not going to praise any curator for putting on a show that sets itself up to be something really “new” and then mostly perpetuates the status quo.

]]> By: eff.art.bloghttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-316081 eff.art.blog Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:12:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-316081 @ Art Fag City: I feel like Younger than Jesus puts one toe over line and by doing so sets itself up for harsh words. It is indeed a positive that we see someone like Mark Essen in the show, but you can't take one little step towards innovation and expect to be patted on the back. You can, however, expect to have people ask you why you only cracked the door open and didn't take things further.I'm elated that people are getting worked up about this, and, after tasting one little nibble of really new stuff being exhibited at a major museum, are saying, "More!" But I am not going to praise any curator for putting on a show that sets itself up to be something really "new" and then mostly perpetuates the status quo. @ Art Fag City: I feel like Younger than Jesus puts one toe over line and by doing so sets itself up for harsh words. It is indeed a positive that we see someone like Mark Essen in the show, but you can’t take one little step towards innovation and expect to be patted on the back. You can, however, expect to have people ask you why you only cracked the door open and didn’t take things further.

I’m elated that people are getting worked up about this, and, after tasting one little nibble of really new stuff being exhibited at a major museum, are saying, “More!” But I am not going to praise any curator for putting on a show that sets itself up to be something really “new” and then mostly perpetuates the status quo.

]]> By: Davidhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-150390 David Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:28:48 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-150390 I don't think what Cotter is advocating is actually "outsider art", and I think his criticisms are superb on this point. Isn't there a model where curators are involved on the lowest level, applying their thinking to a larger sample than pre-selections by art professionals? One could think of that as their work. When that doesn't happen, you get something like Younger than Jesus, and the criticism it elicits from Cotter, which garners much sympathy for many of us tired of the role of the market in the art world, represents a very valid viewpoint.I'm afraid you're right Paddy when you point out that this generation's inclination is to embrace the market. But I don't think that's a neutral judgement thing, like it was the Pictures generation's inclination to explore the politics of representation- because the embrace of the market is not neutral, and one of its consequences is the steady loss of any value of art not associated with monetary value. It's a bad thing. And I guess we're hoping, the voices in this comment section at least, for a show to come along that represents thoughtful art that is not so ambivalent about the whole economic mechanism facilitating the filling of galleries with objects. If history is the propaganda of the victors, as they say, is art history the propaganda of the collectors? One could argue that Younger than Jesus functions that way. I don’t think what Cotter is advocating is actually “outsider art”, and I think his criticisms are superb on this point. Isn’t there a model where curators are involved on the lowest level, applying their thinking to a larger sample than pre-selections by art professionals? One could think of that as their work. When that doesn’t happen, you get something like Younger than Jesus, and the criticism it elicits from Cotter, which garners much sympathy for many of us tired of the role of the market in the art world, represents a very valid viewpoint.

I’m afraid you’re right Paddy when you point out that this generation’s inclination is to embrace the market.
But I don’t think that’s a neutral judgement thing, like it was the Pictures generation’s inclination to explore the politics of representation- because the embrace of the market is not neutral, and one of its consequences is the steady loss of any value of art not associated with monetary value. It’s a bad thing. And I guess we’re hoping, the voices in this comment section at least, for a show to come along that represents thoughtful art that is not so ambivalent about the whole economic mechanism facilitating the filling of galleries with objects. If history is the propaganda of the victors, as they say, is art history the propaganda of the collectors? One could argue that Younger than Jesus functions that way.

]]> By: Davidhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-316080 David Wed, 03 Jun 2009 16:28:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-316080 I don't think what Cotter is advocating is actually "outsider art", and I think his criticisms are superb on this point. Isn't there a model where curators are involved on the lowest level, applying their thinking to a larger sample than pre-selections by art professionals? One could think of that as their work. When that doesn't happen, you get something like Younger than Jesus, and the criticism it elicits from Cotter, which garners much sympathy for many of us tired of the role of the market in the art world, represents a very valid viewpoint.I'm afraid you're right Paddy when you point out that this generation's inclination is to embrace the market. But I don't think that's a neutral judgement thing, like it was the Pictures generation's inclination to explore the politics of representation- because the embrace of the market is not neutral, and one of its consequences is the steady loss of any value of art not associated with monetary value. It's a bad thing. And I guess we're hoping, the voices in this comment section at least, for a show to come along that represents thoughtful art that is not so ambivalent about the whole economic mechanism facilitating the filling of galleries with objects. If history is the propaganda of the victors, as they say, is art history the propaganda of the collectors? One could argue that Younger than Jesus functions that way. I don’t think what Cotter is advocating is actually “outsider art”, and I think his criticisms are superb on this point. Isn’t there a model where curators are involved on the lowest level, applying their thinking to a larger sample than pre-selections by art professionals? One could think of that as their work. When that doesn’t happen, you get something like Younger than Jesus, and the criticism it elicits from Cotter, which garners much sympathy for many of us tired of the role of the market in the art world, represents a very valid viewpoint.

I’m afraid you’re right Paddy when you point out that this generation’s inclination is to embrace the market.
But I don’t think that’s a neutral judgement thing, like it was the Pictures generation’s inclination to explore the politics of representation- because the embrace of the market is not neutral, and one of its consequences is the steady loss of any value of art not associated with monetary value. It’s a bad thing. And I guess we’re hoping, the voices in this comment section at least, for a show to come along that represents thoughtful art that is not so ambivalent about the whole economic mechanism facilitating the filling of galleries with objects. If history is the propaganda of the victors, as they say, is art history the propaganda of the collectors? One could argue that Younger than Jesus functions that way.

]]> By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-150341 Art Fag City Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:15:17 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-150341 @anon I know this seems nitpicky but Cotter describes an "account" of history not one that is being "defined". He also does not attribute marketing "alone" as the effect behind the show's concept, though the suggestion is that it is a major one. I'm making this distinction, because whatever you think of the show, it is important to acknowledge the intentions and contributions of everyone involved. Personally, I think Cotter calls upon his own set of art world myths to further a point. @anon I know this seems nitpicky but Cotter describes an “account” of history not one that is being “defined”. He also does not attribute marketing “alone” as the effect behind the show’s concept, though the suggestion is that it is a major one. I’m making this distinction, because whatever you think of the show, it is important to acknowledge the intentions and contributions of everyone involved. Personally, I think Cotter calls upon his own set of art world myths to further a point.

]]> By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-316079 Art Fag City Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:15:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-316079 @anon I know this seems nitpicky but Cotter describes an "account" of history not one that is being "defined". He also does not attribute marketing "alone" as the effect behind the show's concept, though the suggestion is that it is a major one. I'm making this distinction, because whatever you think of the show, it is important to acknowledge the intentions and contributions of everyone involved. Personally, I think Cotter calls upon his own set of art world myths to further a point. @anon I know this seems nitpicky but Cotter describes an “account” of history not one that is being “defined”. He also does not attribute marketing “alone” as the effect behind the show’s concept, though the suggestion is that it is a major one. I’m making this distinction, because whatever you think of the show, it is important to acknowledge the intentions and contributions of everyone involved. Personally, I think Cotter calls upon his own set of art world myths to further a point.

]]> By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-150334 Art Fag City Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:52:51 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-150334 @eff.art.blog: Is Mark Essen part of any art market? He comes from the online gamer scene, and to the best of my knowledge has never sold a thing in the Fine Art world. Also Guthrie Lonergan. He's a net artist without representation who isn't living off his art. Neither is conceptual artist Adriana Lara as far as I know. Many of the Generational artists do sell work, but certainly the museum has stepped outside of the commercial art world more than you're claiming. I don't know about you, but much of the work on display isn't showing up at the art fairs I've seen. @eff.art.blog: Is Mark Essen part of any art market? He comes from the online gamer scene, and to the best of my knowledge has never sold a thing in the Fine Art world. Also Guthrie Lonergan. He’s a net artist without representation who isn’t living off his art. Neither is conceptual artist Adriana Lara as far as I know. Many of the Generational artists do sell work, but certainly the museum has stepped outside of the commercial art world more than you’re claiming. I don’t know about you, but much of the work on display isn’t showing up at the art fairs I’ve seen.

]]> By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/comment-page-1/#comment-316078 Art Fag City Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:52:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2009/06/02/whos-framing-a-generation/#comment-316078 @eff.art.blog: Is Mark Essen part of any art market? He comes from the online gamer scene, and to the best of my knowledge has never sold a thing in the Fine Art world. Also Guthrie Lonergan. He's a net artist without representation who isn't living off his art. Neither is conceptual artist Adriana Lara as far as I know. Many of the Generational artists do sell work, but certainly the museum has stepped outside of the commercial art world more than you're claiming. I don't know about you, but much of the work on display isn't showing up at the art fairs I've seen. @eff.art.blog: Is Mark Essen part of any art market? He comes from the online gamer scene, and to the best of my knowledge has never sold a thing in the Fine Art world. Also Guthrie Lonergan. He’s a net artist without representation who isn’t living off his art. Neither is conceptual artist Adriana Lara as far as I know. Many of the Generational artists do sell work, but certainly the museum has stepped outside of the commercial art world more than you’re claiming. I don’t know about you, but much of the work on display isn’t showing up at the art fairs I’ve seen.

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