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I just have to speak up here.. because before the ‘troubled markets’ the ‘starving artist’ in NY was not such a myth and the circumstances for artists in the city have made this economic crisis unlike the previous times of RECESSION and decline. In the past, rent and studio space became cheap if not affordable, artists could live more cheaply, obtained more space to work and that’s when and where the creativity and real innovation happened. In Elizabeth Currid’s book ‘The Warhol Economy’ she discusses this previous historical outpouring of creativity, the significant work that came out of it and how art actually helped the NY economy in crisis. ******The difference in 2008, is that the high real estate prices and gentrification has made it nearly impossible for the New York artists to afford to live and work in or even close to the city. This article I read last month in Res Arts says it all: http://www.resartis.org/index.php?id=309

I just have to speak up here.. because before the ‘troubled markets’ the ‘starving artist’ in NY was not such a myth and the circumstances for artists in the city have made this economic crisis unlike the previous times of RECESSION and decline. In the past, rent and studio space became cheap if not affordable, artists could live more cheaply, obtained more space to work and that’s when and where the creativity and real innovation happened. In Elizabeth Currid’s book ‘The Warhol Economy’ she discusses this previous historical outpouring of creativity, the significant work that came out of it and how art actually helped the NY economy in crisis. ******The difference in 2008, is that the high real estate prices and gentrification has made it nearly impossible for the New York artists to afford to live and work in or even close to the city. This article I read last month in Res Arts says it all: http://www.resartis.org/index.php?id=309

Just to clarify, when I talk about the myth of the starving artist, I am being critical of the idea that an artist has to be poor to make creative progress. I really don’t think suffering is necessary for good art.

Quoting Elizabeth Currid isn’t going to win you any points around here

Just to clarify, when I talk about the myth of the starving artist, I am being critical of the idea that an artist has to be poor to make creative progress. I really don’t think suffering is necessary for good art.

Quoting Elizabeth Currid isn’t going to win you any points around here

Just to clarify, when I talk about the myth of the starving artist, I am being critical of the idea that an artist has to be poor to make creative progress. I really don’t think suffering is necessary for good art.

Quoting Elizabeth Currid isn’t going to win you any points around here

no, you misunderstood me….I’m being critical of the pretension and financial barriers that limit many amazing, innovative artists who can not afford to live in the city, pay for studio space or pay for an MFA tuition. It can very well be those non-MFA molded minds with a unique revolutionary vision who could determine that so-called INNOVATION. If you look at the most exciting times in art history…. that was exactly it! And despite your pretension, Currid makes a valid point . We have not seen any decline in rent or costs for artists to shift they way artist work and the possible new ideas/ visions that can come into light. My whole point is that poor artists do not have the opportunity to make the same creative progress as more fortunate ones….how could they with out materials or space to work. If you took the time to read that article in Res Arts, you will see that even recognized, young artists who received their MFA and are showing in galleries (such as Jason Tomme who showed at Mary Boone last month)….have been suffering and facing barriers due to MFA loan fees and studio rent. And I hate to break it you, but suffering, its reflections and revelation is a huge part of art. As an artist, its not cool or fun to suffer…no one wants it, but there’s where we grow from and universally relate. Here’s another valid pop quote that may conflict with your pretentious art class standard, ” Yeah, great art is about conflict and pain and guilt and longing and love disguised as sex, and sex disguised as love… ” ~ Lester Bangs in Almost Famous

no, you misunderstood me….I’m being critical of the pretension and financial barriers that limit many amazing, innovative artists who can not afford to live in the city, pay for studio space or pay for an MFA tuition. It can very well be those non-MFA molded minds with a unique revolutionary vision who could determine that so-called INNOVATION. If you look at the most exciting times in art history…. that was exactly it! And despite your pretension, Currid makes a valid point . We have not seen any decline in rent or costs for artists to shift they way artist work and the possible new ideas/ visions that can come into light. My whole point is that poor artists do not have the opportunity to make the same creative progress as more fortunate ones….how could they with out materials or space to work. If you took the time to read that article in Res Arts, you will see that even recognized, young artists who received their MFA and are showing in galleries (such as Jason Tomme who showed at Mary Boone last month)….have been suffering and facing barriers due to MFA loan fees and studio rent. And I hate to break it you, but suffering, its reflections and revelation is a huge part of art. As an artist, its not cool or fun to suffer…no one wants it, but there’s where we grow from and universally relate. Here’s another valid pop quote that may conflict with your pretentious art class standard, ” Yeah, great art is about conflict and pain and guilt and longing and love disguised as sex, and sex disguised as love… ” ~ Lester Bangs in Almost Famous

no, you misunderstood me….I’m being critical of the pretension and financial barriers that limit many amazing, innovative artists who can not afford to live in the city, pay for studio space or pay for an MFA tuition. It can very well be those non-MFA molded minds with a unique revolutionary vision who could determine that so-called INNOVATION. If you look at the most exciting times in art history…. that was exactly it! And despite your pretension, Currid makes a valid point . We have not seen any decline in rent or costs for artists to shift they way artist work and the possible new ideas/ visions that can come into light. My whole point is that poor artists do not have the opportunity to make the same creative progress as more fortunate ones….how could they with out materials or space to work. If you took the time to read that article in Res Arts, you will see that even recognized, young artists who received their MFA and are showing in galleries (such as Jason Tomme who showed at Mary Boone last month)….have been suffering and facing barriers due to MFA loan fees and studio rent. And I hate to break it you, but suffering, its reflections and revelation is a huge part of art. As an artist, its not cool or fun to suffer…no one wants it, but there’s where we grow from and universally relate. Here’s another valid pop quote that may conflict with your pretentious art class standard, ” Yeah, great art is about conflict and pain and guilt and longing and love disguised as sex, and sex disguised as love… ” ~ Lester Bangs in Almost Famous

Fine Rebecca, but I never suggested I think financial barriers don’t affect artists so I don’t know why a) you keep harping on this point, and b) are interpreting a statement I never made as proof of pretension. Only an idiot would say what you seem to think I’m saying.

Fine Rebecca, but I never suggested I think financial barriers don’t affect artists so I don’t know why a) you keep harping on this point, and b) are interpreting a statement I never made as proof of pretension. Only an idiot would say what you seem to think I’m saying.

Fine Rebecca, but I never suggested I think financial barriers don’t affect artists so I don’t know why a) you keep harping on this point, and b) are interpreting a statement I never made as proof of pretension. Only an idiot would say what you seem to think I’m saying.

A. I love that you responded so promptly!
B. I keep harping on this point because I feel that it is an important, timely issue that significantly affects the quality of the art, but is not highlighted and given the same media attention as the financial dilemmas on the pure “market end.” So, when I see an opportunity to express the artists’ point of view, I’ll take advantage.
C. I apologize for the for any mis-interpretation…. and I’m sorry to have accused you of pretension.
D. goodluck and goodnight:)

A. I love that you responded so promptly!
B. I keep harping on this point because I feel that it is an important, timely issue that significantly affects the quality of the art, but is not highlighted and given the same media attention as the financial dilemmas on the pure “market end.” So, when I see an opportunity to express the artists’ point of view, I’ll take advantage.
C. I apologize for the for any mis-interpretation…. and I’m sorry to have accused you of pretension.
D. goodluck and goodnight:)

You guys do seem to be arguing different nibbles of the same point and I agree with both of you.

Paddy, I want to let you know that I resurrected SELLOUT. The times seemed to demand it. I think you’re right, that artists will have to innovate across a different axis. And Rebecca, the axis that artists will be innovating against is going to be really boring grownup decisionmaking: how do you make what you want without easy consumer credit? How (why?) do you pay for an MFA? How do you make art when you have to work more hours?

The artist’s lifestyle has become fairly standardized, and those default choices (like massive debt for an MFA) are predicated, I think, on economic excess and an increasingly professionalized market.

You guys do seem to be arguing different nibbles of the same point and I agree with both of you.

Paddy, I want to let you know that I resurrected SELLOUT. The times seemed to demand it. I think you’re right, that artists will have to innovate across a different axis. And Rebecca, the axis that artists will be innovating against is going to be really boring grownup decisionmaking: how do you make what you want without easy consumer credit? How (why?) do you pay for an MFA? How do you make art when you have to work more hours?

The artist’s lifestyle has become fairly standardized, and those default choices (like massive debt for an MFA) are predicated, I think, on economic excess and an increasingly professionalized market.

You guys do seem to be arguing different nibbles of the same point and I agree with both of you.

Paddy, I want to let you know that I resurrected SELLOUT. The times seemed to demand it. I think you’re right, that artists will have to innovate across a different axis. And Rebecca, the axis that artists will be innovating against is going to be really boring grownup decisionmaking: how do you make what you want without easy consumer credit? How (why?) do you pay for an MFA? How do you make art when you have to work more hours?

The artist’s lifestyle has become fairly standardized, and those default choices (like massive debt for an MFA) are predicated, I think, on economic excess and an increasingly professionalized market.

I apologize in advance and really dont intend to drag this on here…but since those questions were directed towards me….I’ll just say a few things (sorry Art Fag City!!). I think that the internet is the real place for innovation during this time. I find both of your blogs inspiring because that alone has changed (innovated) the platform for art criticism. This context is the main way to interact, be informed and get involved when your working more hours in an office (like myself)and can not go to see every show….or even afford to buy every art publication. The accessibility and low cost opens up so many possibilities. Artists, dealers and collectors should look towards that when having to financially compromise and make changes now.

I apologize in advance and really dont intend to drag this on here…but since those questions were directed towards me….I’ll just say a few things (sorry Art Fag City!!). I think that the internet is the real place for innovation during this time. I find both of your blogs inspiring because that alone has changed (innovated) the platform for art criticism. This context is the main way to interact, be informed and get involved when your working more hours in an office (like myself)and can not go to see every show….or even afford to buy every art publication. The accessibility and low cost opens up so many possibilities. Artists, dealers and collectors should look towards that when having to financially compromise and make changes now.

I apologize in advance and really dont intend to drag this on here…but since those questions were directed towards me….I’ll just say a few things (sorry Art Fag City!!). I think that the internet is the real place for innovation during this time. I find both of your blogs inspiring because that alone has changed (innovated) the platform for art criticism. This context is the main way to interact, be informed and get involved when your working more hours in an office (like myself)and can not go to see every show….or even afford to buy every art publication. The accessibility and low cost opens up so many possibilities. Artists, dealers and collectors should look towards that when having to financially compromise and make changes now.

@Rebecca Not a problem. I don’t mind the discussion, I just wanted to clear up the confusion on my own position.

@Deborah Increasingly I think it’s not all that important to get an MFA (unless you plan to teach) and even then you can more or less do what you want if you are successful. When I graduated from art school I thought teaching would get in the way of my art making and that I had a social responsibility to work a little before I taught. The truth of the matter is that it’s hard to get a teaching job unless you land a job immediately after grad school, and that it like every other job gets in the way of art making. These next few years are going to be really tough, particularly for artists. It’s a really bad time to have a lot of art school debt. An MFA may not be worth it.

@Rebecca Not a problem. I don’t mind the discussion, I just wanted to clear up the confusion on my own position.

@Deborah Increasingly I think it’s not all that important to get an MFA (unless you plan to teach) and even then you can more or less do what you want if you are successful. When I graduated from art school I thought teaching would get in the way of my art making and that I had a social responsibility to work a little before I taught. The truth of the matter is that it’s hard to get a teaching job unless you land a job immediately after grad school, and that it like every other job gets in the way of art making. These next few years are going to be really tough, particularly for artists. It’s a really bad time to have a lot of art school debt. An MFA may not be worth it.

@Rebecca Not a problem. I don’t mind the discussion, I just wanted to clear up the confusion on my own position.

@Deborah Increasingly I think it’s not all that important to get an MFA (unless you plan to teach) and even then you can more or less do what you want if you are successful. When I graduated from art school I thought teaching would get in the way of my art making and that I had a social responsibility to work a little before I taught. The truth of the matter is that it’s hard to get a teaching job unless you land a job immediately after grad school, and that it like every other job gets in the way of art making. These next few years are going to be really tough, particularly for artists. It’s a really bad time to have a lot of art school debt. An MFA may not be worth it.