Comments on: Lost Not Found: The Unnamed Sources http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/ New York art news and reviews. Mon, 13 Feb 2012 04:20:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-105213 Art Fag City Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:01:30 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-105213 Marisa: At the very least I really think Marcin Ramocki's Surf Clubs Organized Notes and Comments deserves a little more than the dismissal you give it for not taking the form of an essay. Significant portions of your piece are indebted to that work and it's not been acknowledged. I think you do a real disservice to yourself and others by writing as though you're the first to publicly address these issues. Notably, no one is talking about the content of your essay, including you, due to this distraction. Certainly there are points I've brought up that could use further explanation.The Hill: Section 4.5 in Ramocki's essay talks about signifiers as a means of describing the linguistic structure of surf clubs. I haven't read the essays you're talking about so you're going to have to make a better case for why Ramocki should have used Barthe instead of Saussure. As far as I can tell the common paradigm sets and syntagms make perfect sense as applied to the clubs. I simply don't understand the issue. Marisa: At the very least I really think Marcin Ramocki’s Surf Clubs Organized Notes and Comments deserves a little more than the dismissal you give it for not taking the form of an essay. Significant portions of your piece are indebted to that work and it’s not been acknowledged. I think you do a real disservice to yourself and others by writing as though you’re the first to publicly address these issues. Notably, no one is talking about the content of your essay, including you, due to this distraction. Certainly there are points I’ve brought up that could use further explanation.

The Hill: Section 4.5 in Ramocki’s essay talks about signifiers as a means of describing the linguistic structure of surf clubs. I haven’t read the essays you’re talking about so you’re going to have to make a better case for why Ramocki should have used Barthe instead of Saussure. As far as I can tell the common paradigm sets and syntagms make perfect sense as applied to the clubs. I simply don’t understand the issue.

]]> By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-314312 Art Fag City Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:01:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-314312 Marisa: At the very least I really think Marcin Ramocki's Surf Clubs Organized Notes and Comments deserves a little more than the dismissal you give it for not taking the form of an essay. Significant portions of your piece are indebted to that work and it's not been acknowledged. I think you do a real disservice to yourself and others by writing as though you're the first to publicly address these issues. Notably, no one is talking about the content of your essay, including you, due to this distraction. Certainly there are points I've brought up that could use further explanation.The Hill: Section 4.5 in Ramocki's essay talks about signifiers as a means of describing the linguistic structure of surf clubs. I haven't read the essays you're talking about so you're going to have to make a better case for why Ramocki should have used Barthe instead of Saussure. As far as I can tell the common paradigm sets and syntagms make perfect sense as applied to the clubs. I simply don't understand the issue. Marisa: At the very least I really think Marcin Ramocki’s Surf Clubs Organized Notes and Comments deserves a little more than the dismissal you give it for not taking the form of an essay. Significant portions of your piece are indebted to that work and it’s not been acknowledged. I think you do a real disservice to yourself and others by writing as though you’re the first to publicly address these issues. Notably, no one is talking about the content of your essay, including you, due to this distraction. Certainly there are points I’ve brought up that could use further explanation.

The Hill: Section 4.5 in Ramocki’s essay talks about signifiers as a means of describing the linguistic structure of surf clubs. I haven’t read the essays you’re talking about so you’re going to have to make a better case for why Ramocki should have used Barthe instead of Saussure. As far as I can tell the common paradigm sets and syntagms make perfect sense as applied to the clubs. I simply don’t understand the issue.

]]> By: The Hillhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-102901 The Hill Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:51:10 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-102901 This reminds me of parents deciding when baby said the 'first word'. The reality is the parents do it by hearing an utterance that sounds like something simple and going ape shit over it, which baby assumes has effective power. This elicits from baby a repeatable act of power. Conversation begins. I'm noticing the above treat this new phenomena in old ways, Olsen's sorta weak comparison to the history of photography and Christian Metz' mis en scene, Halter's synchronic geneology and Ramocki's organized notes w/ its heavy handed allegiance to semiotic models. (Ramocki could have saved a lot of wind and just referenced Barthe's Elements or Eco.) The problem e.g., is w/ Ramocki having his critical apparatus grounded in Saussure (and Metz is into Saus. aussi),we have attempts at discourse which have a very simplistic linguistic model. I think we can safely say we are way beyond Sign = Signifier/Signified = etc. Jakabson's (yeah we all remember the J is like a Y) similarity/contiguity, paradigmatic/syntagmatic suffer similarly. Long story short, it seems old critical models based on linguistics will yield some things, but to me this phenomena is much more like conversation, w/ certain rules for turn taking, rage etiquette, topic raising, questioning, sourcing, trolling, immediate feedback, not to mention the shear globalness of the imagery. I'm going out on a limb here to say critical discourse doesn't hold to semiotics, but is more of a stew involving identity politics, queering, some old scientizing semiotics, maybe Jameson? This reminds me of parents deciding when baby said the ‘first word’. The reality is the parents do it by hearing an utterance that sounds like something simple and going ape shit over it, which baby assumes has effective power. This elicits from baby a repeatable act of power. Conversation begins. I’m noticing the above treat this new phenomena in old ways, Olsen’s sorta weak comparison to the history of photography and Christian Metz’ mis en scene, Halter’s synchronic geneology and Ramocki’s organized notes w/ its heavy handed allegiance to semiotic models. (Ramocki could have saved a lot of wind and just referenced Barthe’s Elements or Eco.) The problem e.g., is w/ Ramocki having his critical apparatus grounded in Saussure (and Metz is into Saus. aussi),we have attempts at discourse which have a very simplistic linguistic model. I think we can safely say we are way beyond Sign = Signifier/Signified = etc. Jakabson’s (yeah we all remember the J is like a Y) similarity/contiguity, paradigmatic/syntagmatic suffer similarly. Long story short, it seems old critical models based on linguistics will yield some things, but to me this phenomena is much more like conversation, w/ certain rules for turn taking, rage etiquette, topic raising, questioning, sourcing, trolling, immediate feedback, not to mention the shear globalness of the imagery. I’m going out on a limb here to say critical discourse doesn’t hold to semiotics, but is more of a stew involving identity politics, queering, some old scientizing semiotics, maybe Jameson?

]]> By: The Hillhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-314311 The Hill Tue, 30 Sep 2008 14:51:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-314311 This reminds me of parents deciding when baby said the 'first word'. The reality is the parents do it by hearing an utterance that sounds like something simple and going ape shit over it, which baby assumes has effective power. This elicits from baby a repeatable act of power. Conversation begins. I'm noticing the above treat this new phenomena in old ways, Olsen's sorta weak comparison to the history of photography and Christian Metz' mis en scene, Halter's synchronic geneology and Ramocki's organized notes w/ its heavy handed allegiance to semiotic models. (Ramocki could have saved a lot of wind and just referenced Barthe's Elements or Eco.) The problem e.g., is w/ Ramocki having his critical apparatus grounded in Saussure (and Metz is into Saus. aussi),we have attempts at discourse which have a very simplistic linguistic model. I think we can safely say we are way beyond Sign = Signifier/Signified = etc. Jakabson's (yeah we all remember the J is like a Y) similarity/contiguity, paradigmatic/syntagmatic suffer similarly. Long story short, it seems old critical models based on linguistics will yield some things, but to me this phenomena is much more like conversation, w/ certain rules for turn taking, rage etiquette, topic raising, questioning, sourcing, trolling, immediate feedback, not to mention the shear globalness of the imagery. I'm going out on a limb here to say critical discourse doesn't hold to semiotics, but is more of a stew involving identity politics, queering, some old scientizing semiotics, maybe Jameson? This reminds me of parents deciding when baby said the ‘first word’. The reality is the parents do it by hearing an utterance that sounds like something simple and going ape shit over it, which baby assumes has effective power. This elicits from baby a repeatable act of power. Conversation begins. I’m noticing the above treat this new phenomena in old ways, Olsen’s sorta weak comparison to the history of photography and Christian Metz’ mis en scene, Halter’s synchronic geneology and Ramocki’s organized notes w/ its heavy handed allegiance to semiotic models. (Ramocki could have saved a lot of wind and just referenced Barthe’s Elements or Eco.) The problem e.g., is w/ Ramocki having his critical apparatus grounded in Saussure (and Metz is into Saus. aussi),we have attempts at discourse which have a very simplistic linguistic model. I think we can safely say we are way beyond Sign = Signifier/Signified = etc. Jakabson’s (yeah we all remember the J is like a Y) similarity/contiguity, paradigmatic/syntagmatic suffer similarly. Long story short, it seems old critical models based on linguistics will yield some things, but to me this phenomena is much more like conversation, w/ certain rules for turn taking, rage etiquette, topic raising, questioning, sourcing, trolling, immediate feedback, not to mention the shear globalness of the imagery. I’m going out on a limb here to say critical discourse doesn’t hold to semiotics, but is more of a stew involving identity politics, queering, some old scientizing semiotics, maybe Jameson?

]]> By: 1f54tom moodyhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-102486 1f54tom moody Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:31:39 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-102486 For the record Marisa and I were both members of Nasty Nets and were in the thick of that discussion of "manifestolessness."Marisa, your writing hardly constitutes an "exterior critical voice," whether or not it is in essay form or and whether or not it is for a museum. You are a total insider with a stake in the discussion, as am I.As I recall I said manifestos were good and you said we didn't need them because NN members were having discussions about NN via email and IM.And now you're putting on your museum hat and supplying the critical spin. So far a good percentage of people writing about surf clubs, authoritatively or not, are or were surf club members, it should be noted. For the record Marisa and I were both members of Nasty Nets and were in the thick of that discussion of “manifestolessness.”

Marisa, your writing hardly constitutes an “exterior critical voice,” whether or not it is in essay form or and whether or not it is for a museum. You are a total insider with a stake in the discussion, as am I.

As I recall I said manifestos were good and you said we didn’t need them because NN members were having discussions about NN via email and IM.

And now you’re putting on your museum hat and supplying the critical spin. So far a good percentage of people writing about surf clubs, authoritatively or not, are or were surf club members, it should be noted.

]]> By: 1f54tom moodyhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-314310 1f54tom moody Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:31:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-314310 For the record Marisa and I were both members of Nasty Nets and were in the thick of that discussion of "manifestolessness."Marisa, your writing hardly constitutes an "exterior critical voice," whether or not it is in essay form or and whether or not it is for a museum. You are a total insider with a stake in the discussion, as am I.As I recall I said manifestos were good and you said we didn't need them because NN members were having discussions about NN via email and IM.And now you're putting on your museum hat and supplying the critical spin. So far a good percentage of people writing about surf clubs, authoritatively or not, are or were surf club members, it should be noted. For the record Marisa and I were both members of Nasty Nets and were in the thick of that discussion of “manifestolessness.”

Marisa, your writing hardly constitutes an “exterior critical voice,” whether or not it is in essay form or and whether or not it is for a museum. You are a total insider with a stake in the discussion, as am I.

As I recall I said manifestos were good and you said we didn’t need them because NN members were having discussions about NN via email and IM.

And now you’re putting on your museum hat and supplying the critical spin. So far a good percentage of people writing about surf clubs, authoritatively or not, are or were surf club members, it should be noted.

]]> By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-102480 Art Fag City Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:04:15 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-102480 I hadn't really meant it to read as such. I hadn’t really meant it to read as such.

]]> By: Art Fag Cityhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-314309 Art Fag City Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:04:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-314309 I hadn't really meant it to read as such. I hadn’t really meant it to read as such.

]]> By: 1f54tom moodyhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-102474 1f54tom moody Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:52:28 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-102474 I wouldn't concede any difference in the digital age among lecture notes, essays, and blog posts. They are all vehicles for the presentation of ideas, with varying degrees of formality. I quote blogs and lecture notes all the time. I wouldn’t concede any difference in the digital age among lecture notes, essays, and blog posts. They are all vehicles for the presentation of ideas, with varying degrees of formality. I quote blogs and lecture notes all the time.

]]> By: 1f54tom moodyhttp://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/comment-page-1/#comment-314308 1f54tom moody Mon, 29 Sep 2008 20:52:00 +0000 http://www.artfagcity.com/2008/09/29/lost-not-found-the-unnamed-sources/#comment-314308 I wouldn't concede any difference in the digital age among lecture notes, essays, and blog posts. They are all vehicles for the presentation of ideas, with varying degrees of formality. I quote blogs and lecture notes all the time. I wouldn’t concede any difference in the digital age among lecture notes, essays, and blog posts. They are all vehicles for the presentation of ideas, with varying degrees of formality. I quote blogs and lecture notes all the time.

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