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	<title>Comments on: Art Intercom: Featuring New Media Artist Nathaniel Stern</title>
	<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/</link>
	<description>As relevant as Eric Fischl. New York art news, reviews and gossip.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 19:19:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: nathaniel and the non-aggressive &#187; on Art Fag City</title>
		<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2059</link>
		<author>nathaniel and the non-aggressive &#187; on Art Fag City</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jun 2007 15:43:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2059</guid>
					<description>[...] of her &#8220;Art Intercom&#8221; series for iCommons, a 2-part interview I did with Paddy features through her blog to (well, it&#8217;s all a little confusing, this whole my re-blogging a cross-blog/re-blog thing, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] of her &#8220;Art Intercom&#8221; series for iCommons, a 2-part interview I did with Paddy features through her blog to (well, it&#8217;s all a little confusing, this whole my re-blogging a cross-blog/re-blog thing, [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: David McBride</title>
		<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2147</link>
		<author>David McBride</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jun 2007 23:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2147</guid>
					<description>It should be noted that Nathaniel Stern doesn't get Benjamin's thesis quite right.  Stern says Benjamin 

"was wrong in saying that the more copies, the less the authentic original has value: it’s exactly the opposite - the more people that have posters of the Mona Lisa, the more collectors will want the original"  

But Benjamin is describing the way mechanical reproduction has a withering effect on the "aura" of a work of art; it's value of a different kind that the Marxist is discussing.  Benjamin refers to the very dynamic Stern is relying upon as the "phony spell of a commodity" (page 231 in Illuminations).
   At the end of the day, Benjamin's essay is political, directly addressing Fascism but conditioned by a value system antagonistic to the sort of desire Stern would exploit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It should be noted that Nathaniel Stern doesn&#8217;t get Benjamin&#8217;s thesis quite right.  Stern says Benjamin </p>
<p>&#8220;was wrong in saying that the more copies, the less the authentic original has value: it’s exactly the opposite - the more people that have posters of the Mona Lisa, the more collectors will want the original&#8221;  </p>
<p>But Benjamin is describing the way mechanical reproduction has a withering effect on the &#8220;aura&#8221; of a work of art; it&#8217;s value of a different kind that the Marxist is discussing.  Benjamin refers to the very dynamic Stern is relying upon as the &#8220;phony spell of a commodity&#8221; (page 231 in Illuminations).<br />
   At the end of the day, Benjamin&#8217;s essay is political, directly addressing Fascism but conditioned by a value system antagonistic to the sort of desire Stern would exploit.</p>
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		<title>By: nathaniel</title>
		<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2250</link>
		<author>nathaniel</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:30:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2250</guid>
					<description>Hi David - nathaniel here, and thanks for the comment. Admittedly, the word exploit makes me cringe a bit, but I concede your point (as well as its use); if we are to take a Marxist approach to Benjamin's essay, and it's fair to say we should, then yes, he's saying the same thing I am. I guess I should more properly be arguing against some of the readings I've heard others impute onto Benjamin with regards to monetary value (which is not his point).... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi David - nathaniel here, and thanks for the comment. Admittedly, the word exploit makes me cringe a bit, but I concede your point (as well as its use); if we are to take a Marxist approach to Benjamin&#8217;s essay, and it&#8217;s fair to say we should, then yes, he&#8217;s saying the same thing I am. I guess I should more properly be arguing against some of the readings I&#8217;ve heard others impute onto Benjamin with regards to monetary value (which is not his point)&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: David McBride</title>
		<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2291</link>
		<author>David McBride</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 18:58:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2291</guid>
					<description>Hi Nathaniel, glad for the dialogue.  Yes, I wasn't too sure about "exploit", but careful consideration (honest!) suggested it was the appropriate term.  But how is it that you and Benjamin are saying the same thing?  You're saying that the fame of an artwork, fame made possible by mechanical reproduction, increases one's desire to own the original, and that this phenomenon is "exactly the opposite" of what Benjamin is asserting in his discussion.  Right?  Such that sophisticated marketing strategies may enable an artist  to enjoy higher prices.
   That's difficult to deny, but I don't think it's what Benjamin is interested in in his essay.  He seems to address that phenomenon (or its potential due to mechanical reproduction) as a negative development (expaned on by John Berger's Ways of Seeing as a way for institutions to essentially propogandize -is that a word?- and retain their authority).
   So how are you saying the same things, or am I misinterpreting you?  What readings do you mean?  It's an old essay, and much of the cultural context has changed, but the distinction between celebrity and "aura" in the age of mechanical reproduction seems a fundamental point; and enjoyable to discuss. (AND very salient in the current art world/market)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Nathaniel, glad for the dialogue.  Yes, I wasn&#8217;t too sure about &#8220;exploit&#8221;, but careful consideration (honest!) suggested it was the appropriate term.  But how is it that you and Benjamin are saying the same thing?  You&#8217;re saying that the fame of an artwork, fame made possible by mechanical reproduction, increases one&#8217;s desire to own the original, and that this phenomenon is &#8220;exactly the opposite&#8221; of what Benjamin is asserting in his discussion.  Right?  Such that sophisticated marketing strategies may enable an artist  to enjoy higher prices.<br />
   That&#8217;s difficult to deny, but I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s what Benjamin is interested in in his essay.  He seems to address that phenomenon (or its potential due to mechanical reproduction) as a negative development (expaned on by John Berger&#8217;s Ways of Seeing as a way for institutions to essentially propogandize -is that a word?- and retain their authority).<br />
   So how are you saying the same things, or am I misinterpreting you?  What readings do you mean?  It&#8217;s an old essay, and much of the cultural context has changed, but the distinction between celebrity and &#8220;aura&#8221; in the age of mechanical reproduction seems a fundamental point; and enjoyable to discuss. (AND very salient in the current art world/market)</p>
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		<title>By: David McBride</title>
		<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2302</link>
		<author>David McBride</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2302</guid>
					<description>Incidentally, since icommons.org is the primary place to read the interview, I thought it would be appropriate to post on that site, as well.  I did, but  I guess it didn't take.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Incidentally, since icommons.org is the primary place to read the interview, I thought it would be appropriate to post on that site, as well.  I did, but  I guess it didn&#8217;t take.</p>
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		<title>By: nathaniel</title>
		<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2309</link>
		<author>nathaniel</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 11:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2309</guid>
					<description>I think we are on the same page, and perhaps a useful distinction might be between value ("aura") and value ("monetary"). A little didactic, but the two sometimes go hand in hand, and sometimes do not. I &lt;i&gt;think&lt;/i&gt; that what you are saying is that Benjamin sees the these two as opposed? The former is "good," the latter is "bad"? For me, a bit of a control freak, my intended (or at least an interesting) context and provenance must go with a "meme"d work in order for it to be successful (aura), and if a "money"d work takes away from that, I'd be unhappy -- and I'd agree with you / Benjamin here.

I've heard this conflated/misused by opponents of and/or newcomers to CC, to say that monetary value decreases as a work of art is distributed (we both agree this is silly - I am not attributing b/c the two that come to mind have since changed their minds and would likely not want to be linked to). This is what I was arguing against, and again, I misspoke (was a phone interview). 

But, and maybe this will carry on our discussion, I also disagree that the two are necessarily always opposed (what I think you and Benjamin are saying) -- sometimes a meme'd work, even (tho less often) one that is misread (but later studied more b/c of this), can increase in both "forms" of value...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we are on the same page, and perhaps a useful distinction might be between value (&#8221;aura&#8221;) and value (&#8221;monetary&#8221;). A little didactic, but the two sometimes go hand in hand, and sometimes do not. I <i>think</i> that what you are saying is that Benjamin sees the these two as opposed? The former is &#8220;good,&#8221; the latter is &#8220;bad&#8221;? For me, a bit of a control freak, my intended (or at least an interesting) context and provenance must go with a &#8220;meme&#8221;d work in order for it to be successful (aura), and if a &#8220;money&#8221;d work takes away from that, I&#8217;d be unhappy &#8212; and I&#8217;d agree with you / Benjamin here.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve heard this conflated/misused by opponents of and/or newcomers to CC, to say that monetary value decreases as a work of art is distributed (we both agree this is silly - I am not attributing b/c the two that come to mind have since changed their minds and would likely not want to be linked to). This is what I was arguing against, and again, I misspoke (was a phone interview). </p>
<p>But, and maybe this will carry on our discussion, I also disagree that the two are necessarily always opposed (what I think you and Benjamin are saying) &#8212; sometimes a meme&#8217;d work, even (tho less often) one that is misread (but later studied more b/c of this), can increase in both &#8220;forms&#8221; of value&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: David McBride</title>
		<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2519</link>
		<author>David McBride</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Jun 2007 23:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2519</guid>
					<description>Apologies for the delay.  Admittedly, I introduced them in my last post; but I'm not sure of the place of value judgements here.  Insofar as the essay can be read as a lament for lost aura, then perhaps aura has "value" and things that reduce it are "bad".  But I'm more inclined to think Benjamin is describing a cultural phenomenon, neither "good" nor "bad", and that the moral side of the essay exists primarily as a warning concerning this phenomenon and its potential for Fascist exploitation.  In other words, Benjamin's aura is not the same thing as "good", and even bad art has aura when it is original (in the sense of not being a reproduction).  In another part of the essay, Benjamin refers to mechanical reproduction as having liberated art from its "parasitical dependence on ritual".
   
   Also, my stake in this not the same as Benjamin's; I'm only concerned with a correct interpretation of the essay.  ("Aura" is one of the theoretical foundations of the piece, but it's certainly a debatable one.  It seems to exist largely as a matter of faith, and Benjamin's definition of it is difficult to quantify - though, I admit I do prefer to think it's for real.)  I have a (limited) experience of teaching, and in my classes we read Berger's Ways of Seeing.  It's always a challenging point to get students to understand that the celebrity status of certain works of art doesn't amount to a democratization of art, or that this condition adds value in the sense of "aura" to works.  Your referencing of Benjamin's essay, and its apparent miscalculation, tugged at this part of my thinking, and my desire to clear up what I think is a common misinterpretation of the essay is what compelled me to post. (And I recognize it was telephone interview and it's possible we're in an echo chamber.  I'm not trying to beat a dead horse).

   Finally, I'm not familiar with the term meme'd; my brief research leads me to understand it as a work that is copied.  Is there more to it?  Is a photograph a meme'd work, or does it need to be digital?  In any case, from the perspective of the essay I'd say that a meme'd work, and/or a photograph, if they are different, doesn't have an aura to begin with.  Again, I don't think that's "good" or "bad", but it does illustrate the possible limitations of the essay these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apologies for the delay.  Admittedly, I introduced them in my last post; but I&#8217;m not sure of the place of value judgements here.  Insofar as the essay can be read as a lament for lost aura, then perhaps aura has &#8220;value&#8221; and things that reduce it are &#8220;bad&#8221;.  But I&#8217;m more inclined to think Benjamin is describing a cultural phenomenon, neither &#8220;good&#8221; nor &#8220;bad&#8221;, and that the moral side of the essay exists primarily as a warning concerning this phenomenon and its potential for Fascist exploitation.  In other words, Benjamin&#8217;s aura is not the same thing as &#8220;good&#8221;, and even bad art has aura when it is original (in the sense of not being a reproduction).  In another part of the essay, Benjamin refers to mechanical reproduction as having liberated art from its &#8220;parasitical dependence on ritual&#8221;.</p>
<p>   Also, my stake in this not the same as Benjamin&#8217;s; I&#8217;m only concerned with a correct interpretation of the essay.  (&#8221;Aura&#8221; is one of the theoretical foundations of the piece, but it&#8217;s certainly a debatable one.  It seems to exist largely as a matter of faith, and Benjamin&#8217;s definition of it is difficult to quantify - though, I admit I do prefer to think it&#8217;s for real.)  I have a (limited) experience of teaching, and in my classes we read Berger&#8217;s Ways of Seeing.  It&#8217;s always a challenging point to get students to understand that the celebrity status of certain works of art doesn&#8217;t amount to a democratization of art, or that this condition adds value in the sense of &#8220;aura&#8221; to works.  Your referencing of Benjamin&#8217;s essay, and its apparent miscalculation, tugged at this part of my thinking, and my desire to clear up what I think is a common misinterpretation of the essay is what compelled me to post. (And I recognize it was telephone interview and it&#8217;s possible we&#8217;re in an echo chamber.  I&#8217;m not trying to beat a dead horse).</p>
<p>   Finally, I&#8217;m not familiar with the term meme&#8217;d; my brief research leads me to understand it as a work that is copied.  Is there more to it?  Is a photograph a meme&#8217;d work, or does it need to be digital?  In any case, from the perspective of the essay I&#8217;d say that a meme&#8217;d work, and/or a photograph, if they are different, doesn&#8217;t have an aura to begin with.  Again, I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s &#8220;good&#8221; or &#8220;bad&#8221;, but it does illustrate the possible limitations of the essay these days.</p>
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		<title>By: nathaniel</title>
		<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2581</link>
		<author>nathaniel</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 08:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2581</guid>
					<description>Thanks David - I appreciate the feedback, and the tugged teaching issues; I think the use of the word exploitative hit a nerve, given that it's me trying to gain from my own work, and and not external forces... I appreciate and concede your clarification, and agree I should be more careful in my quick renderings of important historical pieces...

When I say meme'd, I mean the copied buzz of a work which can often happen through re-blogging. And aura, in your/Ben' sense of the word, is unaffected. Hoep to chat face to face some time....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks David - I appreciate the feedback, and the tugged teaching issues; I think the use of the word exploitative hit a nerve, given that it&#8217;s me trying to gain from my own work, and and not external forces&#8230; I appreciate and concede your clarification, and agree I should be more careful in my quick renderings of important historical pieces&#8230;</p>
<p>When I say meme&#8217;d, I mean the copied buzz of a work which can often happen through re-blogging. And aura, in your/Ben&#8217; sense of the word, is unaffected. Hoep to chat face to face some time&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: David McBride</title>
		<link>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2626</link>
		<author>David McBride</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Jun 2007 20:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.artfagcity.com/2007/06/07/art-intercom-featuring-new-media-artist-nathaniel-stern/#comment-2626</guid>
					<description>You're right, since you're trying to gain from your own work then perhaps "exploit" is not the right word.  That seems like an important distinction that I didn't consider.   
   Thanks for responding, our little 10-day analysis has been nice.  Next time maybe in person.  Cheers, Nathaniel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, since you&#8217;re trying to gain from your own work then perhaps &#8220;exploit&#8221; is not the right word.  That seems like an important distinction that I didn&#8217;t consider.<br />
   Thanks for responding, our little 10-day analysis has been nice.  Next time maybe in person.  Cheers, Nathaniel</p>
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